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 Topic: Big 4 -> Bulge Bracket Product Control? ( Topic Closed)
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ddlszxcv
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Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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| Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 22:09 | IP Logged
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Okay so long story short, I just finished my first busy season as an audit
intern in a big 4 in NYC.
Things I liked:
- more money than I ever seen in my life
- free dinner
- I was fortunate enough to be at the office everyday
- I got along well with my team
- i learned so much about how an audit "works"
- client was a bulge bracket where we did their hedge funds audits
- I'm obviously putting this internship under the work experience section
of my resume
Things I ****ing hated
- 65+ hour workweeks
- getting thrown under the bus
- when a mistake is made, ppl start pointing the finger instead at people
instead of thinking of ways to fix the mistake
- I saved rent money by living at home but a 2 hour daily commute is a
killer
- staff 2 who think they are smarter than anyone at the office
- senior 1 who acts like they never made a mistake in their career here
and expect the same out of everyone
- if people didn't dick around, the work could be done in 15% less time
- even if there was no work to be done and people were dicking around,
nobody left before 7:30pm
- people dick around and pretend like they're doing work with screen
protectors on
- people that act like auditing is god's gift to the financial markets
- I felt bad for the seniors who did 5x more work but got paid half my
paycheck (b/c I would be in their shoes in 3 years)
- India staff (gth) that really pissed off my senior b/c they didn't do
anything to help us and my senior would take his/her anger out on me
- the work is just double checking what the client's fund accounting team
did and senior through partner review is just reviewing what the staff did..
So that's what I took away from my internship. Honestly, after busy
season hours were over and people gained sanity, I really really liked
everyone and my last day I almost cried..
I might get **** from some forum people saying that "wow you ****ing
intern, be happy you have a job" and that's okay; I understand where
you're coming from.
But let's be real. How many people want to stay in public accounting for
5+ years? If the only reason you get into public accounting is for the exit
opportunities that pay more, is it possible to get to your exit opportunity
job without going through public accounting?
Example - I only know about the financial services sector of auditing in
NYC so it's probably a lot different in other industry groups. But what if
your ideal job after the big 4 was working at a bulge bracket bank or
decently sized hedge fund? And let's be real here, no big 4 person is
going to get into front office bulge bracket or front office hedge fund,
there's just no way that can happen. More reasonably, you might do some
sort of fund accounting or product control at these BB's or hedge funds.
It's like they just have the big 4 train us for their back office jobs. Is it
possible to go directly into the back office route?
According to this post on GoingConcern,
http://goingconcern.com/2011/7/first-world-problem-when-does -a-
big-4-tax-accountant-jump-ship-for-a-job-at-a-hedge-fund if you read
down at the poster Olinto's Little Helper's comments, a senior leaving a
big 4 to hedge fund accounting can expect to make 2x their big 4 salary
their first year out. So let's be conservative and say a senior 2 makes 77k
in NYC. Their first year out at the hedge fund all in salary + bonus
compensation would be 150-160k. Not bad for a 26/27 year old. This
reader's posts were very helpful and detailed.
According to this post http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/back-
office-bo-product-control-finance-salary-after-x-years-long- term
someone rejected their EY audit FT offer for a GS back office product
control position. 1st year salary is 65k and 10k signing bonus according
to this poster. If that's true, thats senior 1/2 money right there.
I probably sound lazy to you guys for trying to skip the big 4 route but all
I'm saying is that there may be other ways to get to your exit opportunity
job without going through the big 4. There was one person on my team
who I never met bc he left in the fall as a newly promoted staff 2 to GS. A
person I trust on my team told me his staff 2 salary was 63k. So the
goldman offer for the person who only worked here for one full year had
to have been 63k+ with I'm assuming better work life balance. The only
thing I'm hesitant about with starting off in BB back office is there may not
be much career advancement. If 1st year back office type are making
75k, then I'm assuming they get promotions and salary increases as well
which means they're 1-2 years salary ahead of the big 4 type. The only
way that a big 4 would jump That's what I'm researching into now online.
So what do you guys think of this? There are probably tons of holes in my
theory poke as many holes as you want. It'll only help me understand
more. Thank you everyone!!
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db729
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Joined: 22 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 20:37 | IP Logged
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I think you need to write a more coherent post. The two main anecdotes you provided are contradictory of each other. One suggests Big 4 senior --> HF Accountant means 2x salary ($150K ish), while starting off in BO BB is only $75K. Seems like Big 4 then industry is the better path of the two because there's no way you'd double your starting salary in 3/4 years at a BO position. By the way, I'm a bit skeptical about a HF Accountant receiving a 100% bonus and $150K all in, not necessarily that it doesn't happen, but how common is that? Just to list some reasons why I think it'd be really rare for a fairly junior level accountant to make that much
1) Mediocre 2nd or 3rd year IB analysts make roughly $140K-$160K all in at BB banks and even elite boutiques, obviously this depends on the year. But the days of 100+% bonuses are gone. Top first year BB analysts made about $140K last year. If you were at an elite boutique, maybe $160K because some pay better than rest of wall street, but not significantly more.
2) Bonuses for FO role at HF can range from 0%-300% (based off what my friends in HF have told me). Obviously 300% is significantly more than 100%, but my point is that it varies significantly depending on the fund's performance for that year. Seems unlikely a fund accountant would consistently receive a bonuses (be it 100% or 25%) and subsequently $150K total comp.
3) I have a friend who's working at a PE shop with $10+ AUM (any PE with $1B is a pretty large PE shop). He's total comp is around $250K. That's someone with two years of BB IB experience and another year of PE experience. Basically equivalent number of years of work experience and only making $100K more than a fund accountant? Again..seems off.
I understand fund accountants command a higher salary than other industries and certainly a tax fund accountant has even more leverage. But seems to me unless you're highly specialized working in a fund that killed it the past year, I find it very hard to believe you'll get a $150K compensation. If you can find some more sources, I'd be more inclined to believe. Otherwise I stand skeptical.
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ddlszxcv
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| Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 17:28 | IP Logged
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True, my post was not very coherent. I'll just blame it on the laziness
after busy season. But what would you guys have?
Big 4
1st year 2380 chargeable hours/year - $57k
2st year 2440 chargeable hours/year - $63k
3rd year (senior 1) 2569 hours/year - $72k
4th year (senior 2) 2584 hours/year - $78k
1st year hedge fund 50 hours/week - 150k???
These are chargeable hours based on 12 weeks for busy season out of the
year with staff one charging 65/week for 12 weeks, staff 2 70, senior 1 80
etc and 40 hours for the 40 weeks other than busy season. Keep in mind
your firm "policy" may want you to "eat" an hour each day during busy
season for lunch even thought you may work while eating and that only
takes 15 minutes.
As opposed to, I've heard that backoffice is much more relaxed and the
work is not as interesting/fast paced. -
Bulge Bracket Back office product control
based on 45 hour work weeks
1st year 2340 hours - 75k
2nd year 2340 hours - 80k?
3rd year 2340 hours - 85k?
4th year 2340 - 90k?
5th year 2340 95k?
It seems like you definitely get paid more in general at a back office bulge
bracket and your hourly rate is a lot higher than the big 4 except you
might not learn as much. The big 4 person may have an advantage in
terms of salary if he joined a hedge fund making double but is this double
salary at a hedge fund a proverbial carrot? Is it also possible for the back
office person to land a really nice job after his 4 years at the back office?
Is the big 4 learning experience really worth all the lost salary and time?
And I'm assuming a bulge bracket is a lot more stable overall wise where
you see some hedgefund shops close down after a few years.
I guess that's what the question I'm asking really comes down to.
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db729
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| Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 23:56 | IP Logged
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Do people just stop working after year 5? Hint: project out salary to 10 years and compare total compensation over the course of all 10 years. Who ends up making more? By the way, dude really? You're seriously complaining about other people dicking around and not being more efficient? You know what's worse than power hungry 1st year seniors? First year staff, or even worse interns, bitching about other people's work ethics or work quality. You realize the biggest liabilities on an audit are the first year associates that need to be coached and the crappy work they produce that need to be fixed.
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ddlszxcv
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| Posted: 14 Apr 2012 at 03:04 | IP Logged
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Are you serious man? Project the salary out to 10 years? I see how hard
my senior manager worked and I know there's now way she's making
more than 200k at 12 years in. Everyone knows you just keep on working
more and more in public accounting until you get to partner and god
knows how long and how much political bs that takes. There's NO WAY
that a person in the big 4 can make more than a person in fund
accounting after the jump over from the big 4. And if you factor in all the
hours you slave away during busy season and god forbid a 6/31 year end
client, you make way less per hour. I don't know what metro you're in but
in NYC, fund accounting for a fund or bulge bracket is the ideal exit
opportunity because there's so much money because of the bonus
potential.
And yeah, as an intern I saw a lot of dicking around. Every day during
busy season, I would count at least 4-5 people in JIT's on facebook. The
staff 2 on my team who was closest to me told me straight up that he
stops working after 6:30 every day and just pretends like he's doing work.
There were some days where we were just sitting around and hanging out
until 7:30 because we were just keeping up with the perception that we
were "working hard" but in reality there was one person on my team who
was reading comics, another person planning vacations, and another
person who was on sametime, gchat, and fb chat all at once. Why the
need to charge the code for 2 hours more than necessary just to keep up
the fake appearance? I didn't mind because I was getting paid overtime
but as a staff, I would hate it because it's such a useless waste of time.
And there's that stupid game everyone plays where they don't want to be
the first one to leave but once the first person leaves, everyone is gone
within 15 minutes. It could be my office but there was so much
pretending to be hard working going on and so much throwing people
under the bus instead of fixing the mistake.
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